Using relationships for path and network

Started by Hervé, December 06, 2017, 10:46:59 AM

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Hervé

Hi,

If I understood correctly, The Archimate norm states that it is possible to model a network path or a communication network using elements but also using relationships.

Is it possible under Archi ? If not, would it be a huge update to implement it ?

Thanks and regards
Hervé

Phil Beauvoir

December 06, 2017, 10:51:04 AM #1 Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 11:21:16 AM by Phil Beauvoir
Not sure exactly what you mean by that...

Path and Communication Network are elements (nodes) and always behave as such. Do you mean to use the alternative figures? If so, those representations are not relationships (edges) but are just alternative representations of nodes. So it would just be a node posing as a relationship.

Phil
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Phil Beauvoir

It would mean that it would look like the attached images:

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Hervé

Thanks for your quick answer (as always  :D)

In fact, I really meant relathionships as stated by some companies that teach Archimate ...

And doing so would simplify a lot some of my diagrams.


Phil Beauvoir

But these concepts are not relationships, they are elements. In your pictures what connects the Path and the CN to the Nodes and Devices? There have to be some relationships connecting them. I can only imagine that the relationships exist in the model but are not shown in the diagrams.
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Hervé

Per my understanding boxes are elements and arrows are relationships.

So in this case, I do not see the point for the Archimate norm to indicate that path and communication network can be represented by arrows if they are elements only. This is misleading   :-[

Phil Beauvoir

December 06, 2017, 16:23:10 PM #6 Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 16:25:29 PM by Phil Beauvoir
Yes it is misleading. Those are elements not relationships. The only way I could see this working in a tool would be to have elements (nodes) that behaved like connections but behind the scenes it consisted of the element plus two relationships. But then that becomes a little unclear as to what those relationships are.
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Jean-Baptiste Sarrodie

HI,

I have to jump on this ;-)

You are both right (somewhat)... The standard states that an alternate visual way to represent "Association CommunicationNetwork Association" is through a connection. But this is only a visual thing, not a relationship in the model. FWIW same is true with DistributionNetwork and Path.

To my knowledge no tool on the market support this, and IMHO this would be a very confusing notation.

Quote from: Hervé on December 06, 2017, 13:00:04 PM
In fact, I really meant relathionships as stated by some companies that teach Archimate ...

If someone really teach that this is a relationship he/she has to change his/her job. I know a company that provide really good ArchiMate training with one of the best ArchiMate experts ;-)

BTW: "Network Path" does not exist, "Path" does ;-)

Regards,

JB
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Hervé

The pictures in the course documentation drawing arrows (and therefore the Archimate norm itself) are confusing indeed.

But your explanations are very clear.

Thanks
Hervé

steen.jensen@sll.se

Hi, sorry for the "Sparx EA" issue but this tools does alowe that, both Network & Patch to be visulized as object or connector


Phil Beauvoir

Quote from: steen.jensen@sll.se on December 07, 2017, 21:47:52 PM
Hi, sorry for the "Sparx EA" issue but this tools does alowe that, both Network & Patch to be visulized as object or connector

But what is happening "behind the scenes"? What is the relationship between these elements at the model level?
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steen.jensen@sll.se

Ha, I dont know way, but Sparx EA feature to use both Path & ComunicationNetwork as Connector or Object is strange.
When using those as Relations they is implemented as UML connectors and is NOT exported in Archimate 3.0 Open Exchange format :(
So its seems that these Sparx people did some own non-standard stuff. and should not be used.

Phil Beauvoir

Yep, that sounds pretty non-standard.

The key thing here is that Path and Communication Network are elements and not relations. So, to represent them in a diagram as a "connection" that connection has to represent an aggregate of Association - Element - Association. If they do not do this then it is not valid. It would be like trying to connect a battery to a light bulb without wires.
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